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Author Topic: Triggering  (Read 2643 times)

LeVillian

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Triggering
« on: June 15, 2006, 05:47:01 PM »

I just recieved my Zendrum last week (SWEET!!!) and have been praticng like mad.  I am having one problem though:  I run the ZD through a Roland MC-909.  I made several rhythm patches for the ZD.  I had to increase the release time on the amp envelope because of the ZD instant Note on/off.  No problems. . .for the most part.  The sounds play nicely (crashes, gongs and ambient drums) with full decay.  However every once and a while, a sound will fire off with of without decay.  It is not attributed to any one trigger or  sound.

My best guesses are:

1.  Playing style.  I am hiting the pad which produces a velocity message that doesn't allow the sound to play w/ full decay.  I have played with the force meter setting and I am stiking pretty consitently at the 'II' level.

2.  Polyphony max.  Since I upped the release times to get full decay, the sounds may last longer and therefore build up until the sound module can't take anymore notes.  I have doubts about this because I can play for 30 measures and nothing happens and then on the other hand, I can pickup the ZD, play 5 notes and it happens.


The annoying thing is that it is random and I can't intentionally duplicate.

Any suggestions?



LeVillian
The Electronic Warrior



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john emrich

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Re: Triggering
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2006, 07:36:08 PM »

Hello Levillian,

Three things come to mind.  I am familure with Roland in general, and would advise the following three things to look at.

One - Look for MIDI overflow parameters within the 909.  It is very easy to trigger extra MIDI note data on a Zendrum and not realize it.  Depending on your sensitivity settings you might also be triggering more than one trigger on your Zendrum and it will add up.  Your polyphony might be getting used up with out you hearing it.

Two - Within the 909 you should look to see if there are any kind of mute groupings.  If you have a mute group on any of your sounds, you can end up with some of the problems that you are having.  A good example of mute groups is hi-hats..  A closed sound will stop an open sound.  This allows us to play without a pedal.

Three - Look at what MIDI CCs are enabled.  If you don't need a specific MIDI CC it should be turned off.  You may be sending other info to your 909 that you don't need, but will screw up what you are trying to do.

I looked for the manual on the Roland site and got tired of poking around trying to find it.

Hope this helps.
John
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John Emrich
Drums, Percussion, Producer, Sound designer

LeVillian

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Re: Triggering
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2006, 08:08:58 AM »

John,

Thanks for taking the time to help troubleshoot. You went way above and beyond the Bulletin Board standard!! I have seen your videos and they are great example and tutorials.


Three things come to mind.  I am familiar with Roland in general, and would advise the following three things to look at.

One - Look for MIDI overflow parameters within the 909.  It is very easy to trigger extra MIDI note data on a Zendrum and not realize it.  Depending on your sensitivity settings you might also be triggering more than one trigger on your Zendrum and it will add up.  Your polyphony might be getting used up with out you hearing it.

I think overflow is a major part of my problem.  I jacked up the noise floor and played extra soft (to avoid accidental triggering) and it still happens

Two - Within the 909 you should look to see if there are any kind of mute groupings.  If you have a mute group on any of your sounds, you can end up with some of the problems that you are having.  A good example of mute groups is hi-hats..  A closed sound will stop an open sound.  This allows us to play without a pedal.

Pretty sure it's not mute groupings.  I set them manually and only for Hi Hat Pads.  I wish it was this it would be simple  ???

Three - Look at what MIDI CCs are enabled.  If you don't need a specific MIDI CC it should be turned off.  You may be sending other info to your 909 that you don't need, but will screw up what you are trying to do.

The Zendrum sends CCs?  It's the only thing hooked up to the 909. I have a sneak suspicion about CCs and I will look deeper. . .


Another funny thing I have observed:  It seems that the longer I play, the more the problem goes away!  So when I first fire up (909 and sound system first per the Zendrum instruction manual) all sounds clip.  The only way to get a sound to decay is to hold the sustain button on the back of the Zendrum.  After playing for a while, some sounds will begin to play through as intended and I would say after 10 minutes everything is fine.  The only thing I do/change is press the sustain button. Weird. Weird Weird.  I am thinking that I will go to a dedicated drum module like the Alesis and only trigger pads from the 909 (see post in Question regarding outputting on multiple MIDI channels? on how I setup)


With all that said, the Zendrum is AWESOME wow.  The look and feel, craftsmanship are all oustanding.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2006, 08:17:39 AM by LeVillian »
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john emrich

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Re: Triggering
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2006, 09:01:52 PM »

The "funny thing" that you describe sounds like it is taking a while for the 909 to fully load up all of your samples.  Most sampler type units must load in all of the information each time you fire it up and/or change patches.  Depending on the resolution of the sounds that you are using, it might explain some of the problems that seem go away after time.

The thing about CCs that I have experienced with the Zendrum is not the Zendrums fault.  Stuff happens!  I allways turn of the features that I don't need and remove them from the equation.

To me it sounds like you might need to lighten up on your technique and make sure that you are not double triggering the Zendrum.  It is very easy to send a second note real fast and not realize that you have done it.  It will show up in long samples like cymbals and loops amd it sounds like a cut off sample.

Hope this helps,
John
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John Emrich
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LeVillian

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Re: Triggering
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2006, 07:39:12 PM »

John,

Thanks for the advice. I do have a dynamics/technique problem, and practice is helping to perfect technique.  I thing the 909 is at fault too.  I also think that it doesn't do well with drum trigger style midi traffic.  I have found over the years that not all midi gear does well with near instantaneous on/off notes.  I will continue practice and troubleshooting.

Thanks again

LeVillian
The Electronic Warrior
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Zennerman1

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Re: Triggering
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2006, 05:14:15 PM »

So if I understand this correctly, the Zendrum sends a "note on" message followed by a "note off" message. Is this correct? Is there any way to not send a note off?

Cheers,
Steve
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Geosphere

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Re: Triggering
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 11:16:23 AM »

So if I understand this correctly, the Zendrum sends a "note on" message followed by a "note off" message. Is this correct? Is there any way to not send a note off?

Cheers,
Steve

Yes, but its global.  If you switch the 'polarity' setting, then Note Off is only set by hitting the sustain button.  But this effects every pad.
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duojet

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Re: Triggering
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2006, 06:15:11 PM »

So if I understand this correctly, the Zendrum sends a "note on" message followed by a "note off" message. Is this correct? Is there any way to not send a note off?

Cheers,
Steve

Yes, but its global.  If you switch the 'polarity' setting, then Note Off is only set by hitting the sustain button.  But this effects every pad.

i'm looking at the midi input at midi ox shows that at either polarity a note off command is still being sent. any ideas what could be wrong?
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