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Author Topic: map sustain switch to BFD automation?  (Read 1378 times)

JimmyTheSaint

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map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« on: October 06, 2013, 05:46:40 AM »

I want to have my sustain button trigger BFD's panic function to use as a choke just as John Emrich suggests in one of his videos. As I read the manual, it says the sustain button can put out CC 64. So in ZenEdit, I set the button's value to "sustain" (64), set its channel to 10 like all my other triggers, verify that its MIDI message is "control change," and upload the SysEx, but I still can't detect any MIDI information happening as a result of pressing my sustain button. When I press it, ZenEdit doesn't register anything, and neither does BFD's MIDI inspector. In fact, the sustain button only shows in ZenEdit when I select "Show unused items," even after programming it.  I've tried toggling its polarity, but that makes no difference. I think I know what to do on the BFD side (drop the "Panic" parameter onto CC 64 on the automation page),  but I need to verify what's coming out of the sustain button. What am I missing here?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 05:59:14 AM by JimmyTheSaint »
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DrumWagon

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2013, 12:26:40 PM »

The sustain button should not disappear if 'show unused items' is disabled.
This suggests you don't have that control configured properly or are not using the correct on-screen control.

When properly configured, the sustain button will render as a round button with nested concentric circles and will have 'CC 1' watermarked along the bottom.
On the 'Advanced' trigger settings tab, 'MIDI Message' will show 'Control Change'.  On the 'Calibration' tab, Min will be 0 and Max will be 7.  The polarity is not inverted and the response curve is zero.
These are the DEFAULT settings for a new project.  You can create a new project to confirm this and to compare to your own settings.  Please double check your settings and that you are correctly identifying 'CC 1' as that is the momentary switch.

Regarding BFD, by default the 'all notes off' (so-called panic) CC message is #123.  This is the standard message number for that feature and there is no need to remap it to #64.  It's more proper to change the CC number emitted by your momentary switch to be #123.

Personally I don't use 'all notes off' to choke as I don't find that to sound realistic.  I instead use the choke articulations for particular cymbals slots.  That's a bit more complicated however and involves customizing your keymap, converting CC messages to note on/off and creating a repeater if there is more than one cymbal you intend to make chokeable.
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JimmyTheSaint

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2013, 06:18:27 PM »

Thanks. I was misreading the 5-sided graphic as corresponding to the momentary switch. Also, I expected the switch to be in the center of those three at the bottom, surrounded by the two jacks. I programmed the nested concentric circles as recommended. It blinks now in ZenEdit, and I verify in BFD that it receives "CC [123], Val [000], Ch [10]," but I'm not getting any note off action. The hihat continues to ring out. I've un-mapped BFD's panic function. Can you tell me what I'm missing now? For now, I'd rather use my otherwise unused momentary switch than dedicate triggers to choke.
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DrumWagon

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2013, 06:31:02 PM »

Some modules (Roland for instance) cut off all the sounds when CC#123 is received.  I don't believe that's the case for BFD, but John Emrich would probably be the final word on that.  Usually #123 just means stop processing incoming note data for a short period of time.

I use BFD's choke articulations to accomplish cymbal chokes, but it sounds like you want to just abruptly cut off 'all' active sounds?
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JimmyTheSaint

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2013, 06:49:18 PM »

Yes, for now cut off all active sounds. I tried my first plan: programming the switch to CC 64 and mapping that to panic in BFD's automation section. BFD's midi inspector verifies correctness, but I'm still not getting note off action. I also tried all three automation modes (continuous, toggle, and switch).
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DrumWagon

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 09:09:53 PM »

Just the clarify, my comments above meant to say that "note off" does not mean "cut off all audio".  Roland does seem to interpret the MIDI spec in that fashion, but strictly speaking it means to stop processing all note on/off messages.  If the audio engine is still processing a sound I think it's correct to let the tails continue as it's less abrupt.

If you're truly going for that effect though, you might consider using the CC as automation in your DAW or host application, to toggle a mute function.

Just curious though, what is your goal with all this?
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JimmyTheSaint

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2013, 09:15:40 PM »

Oh, right, midi note off obviously won't cut off audio once the note's begun. I'm just trying to find some use for my momentary switch, which just sits idle because I'll never use my ZenDrum melodically since I have a nice keyboard. Also, in my symmetrical layout I have no triggers left to devote to a real choke. I'll probably end up making left-handed and right-handed layouts that use the opposite side for percussion, chokes, etc.
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DrumWagon

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2013, 09:34:12 PM »

I see.  Well, I can tell you how I have mine setup, but it's very specific to my DAW of choice, Reaper.

One of the many cool things about Reaper is that you can develop your own filters using a variant of ECMAScript.  When I first switched over to BFD2, I wrote a small filter that converts CCs over to Note messages.  This allows me to effectively remap CC#64 over to Note#127, which I've then mapped within BFD to a cymbal choke group.

Again, that's very specific to my own needs, but it might give you some ideas.

BTW, that filter I wrote is also available here, should anyone also be using Reaper: http://nebiru.com/drumWagon/page.cfm/ReaperJS

HTH
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JimmyTheSaint

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 03:46:02 AM »

The DAW solution looks like a lot more than I need. Actually, BFD2's panic function will cut off all audio, including ending any groove that is playing. I still really would like to have the momentary switch activate panic. So when I have the Panic parameter mapped to CC 64, I need to solve the problem of why BFD doesn't respond with Panic when it receives velocity 000 for CC 64 on channel 10.
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randtor

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 02:22:27 PM »

Having read through all this, and taking my other post into account,  I am wondering if the way to do this is add a cymbal choke signal to each cymbal, through Zenedit, as the last slot in the 4 slots we can use for each pad. If the crossfade setting is at 124 or so for the last slot, perhaps when striking the cymbal hard, it will cause it to choke?? Then we don't need to even worry about the sustain/choke button on the back.... and that way each cymbal can have an individual choke... I'll try this later tonight!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 02:31:00 PM by randtor »
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john emrich

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 11:43:03 PM »

Just now seeing this.  I will use BFD2 for this example since you didn't specify.  At the bottom of the GUI you will see the learn button.  All you do is press it and you will see a lot of items turn green.  Click on the panic button, push the sustain button and you will see a value show up.  Click learn again to turn off the green indicators and you are good to go.  Then you save the MIDI Map and automation.

It won't matter what CC you are using.  I used 64 when I did mine because we don't use "hold" as a function.

Good luck.

John
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randtor

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 06:43:05 AM »

John, what you are instructing is for making the sustain/choke switch into all off, as a 'panic' button, is that right? Or is that what you use for a cymbal choke?
I did try my thought last night, and it seemed to work. I used Zenedit, went to basic settings for each trigger, opened each cymbal crossfade function up so I had 4 choices and made the last choice a cymbal choke for each cymbal individually. I set the last crossfade strike to work beyond 115. So I can now strike a cymbal with authority and it rings out pretty well, and if I strike it very firmly again, it chokes. That was the function I wanted. I will try the settings you suggested for the sustain button, a panic button does seem to be worth having as well. Thanks!
Rand
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JimmyTheSaint

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 09:07:16 PM »

At the bottom of the GUI you will see the learn button.  All you do is press it and you will see a lot of items turn green.  Click on the panic button, push the sustain button and you will see a value show up.  Click learn again to turn off the green indicators and you are good to go.
This was quite straightforward to do on BFD2, but it simply had no effect. The "64" continues to show on top of my panic button when in learn mode, the MIDI message indicator continues to verify CC 064, vel 0, ch 10 when I press the momentary switch, but cymbals continue to ring out. Yet, when I use the mouse to press the panic button in the interface, it correctly does the poor man's choke. Any suggestions how to troubleshoot?
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randtor

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Re: map sustain switch to BFD automation?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2014, 05:38:09 PM »

I am in BFD3 and essentially I am finding the same thing as JimmyTheSaint. I can set it up as instructed, I can see the #123 light up in the box on the panic switch in the GUI after I push the learn button. Once saved, I have no kill on the notes, but it does work just fine when I test it with the mouse. I think we must be missing a piece of this puzzle? lol!
Rand
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