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Author Topic: cymbal choke  (Read 2933 times)

John

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cymbal choke
« on: May 16, 2006, 06:10:51 PM »

Hi all, can you choke a cymbal on the zendrum? I have a TD20SBK that I currently use for the weekend gigs and would love to get something a little more compact, I'm just wondering what features I would miss if I replaced the kit with a zendrum?

John
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Geosphere

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2006, 07:10:33 PM »

That's dependent on the module, not the ZD.

If your module supports muting by a MIDI note, then yes.
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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 05:29:16 AM »

Hey John,
You need help from one of our Roland users to get down into the TD-20's menus and figure out what needs to be toggled to deal with MIDI input from a Zendrum vs. Roland pads and pedals...(Are you listening Drumhead 99?)
What I know is that MIDI notes can be "grouped" to cut one another off when struck. This requires developing your own version of Zendrumming technique that most closely simulates the effect of open/closed hi-hats or choking cymbals.

The more attention you pay to the detail of ALL the sounds you can get from one acoustic drum or cymbal, the more challenging this can be to get "right" with any electronic drum module. What a lot of us have done is assign multiple triggers different MIDI notes with similar sounds and just change the stereo panning and tuning just a little. From the drum throne perspective, this gives me the sound I hear acoustically of left and right hand sticking. I've always done this on every snare, tom, and cymbal sound I use in my "drumset". This also gives me the ability to send separate MIDI notes that will "play through" better than one MIDI note shared by multiple triggers playing the same exact sound. That's where the machine gun snare sound starts to be less obviously electronic and where you can fool the module into producing more nuance and detail than its normal factory presets will allow.

Zendrumdude (Jer) posted a while back about how to assign the Zendrum sustain button to act as a choke on an Alesis DMPro. That post has since been archived at the Zendrum Resource by Geo. It might give you the overview of what you need to get from your TD-20.
The parameters offered may be called by different names on the Roland, but I'd bet the functionality is the same.

As far as the drumset goes, you'll be gaining the ability to sound like a room full of drummers playing at the same time while taking up the same space as a guitarist or bass player. You'll also be the first guy out the door-not the last.

I have to simulate both of the Allman Brother's drummers on a couple of tunes with drum solos.
That's almost too easy.
The "trick" to Zendrumming is not sounding like a herd of elephants stampeding all the time (unless that's your REAL intention).
Just like with any drumming, the key is to relax and play good time and control the dynamics, first.
The finger rudiments and superchops will come with dedicated practice over time.

I still learn something every time I see another new Zendrummer's video.
We all do this SO differently from one another, there can't possibly be any rules laid down.
That's pretty cool...

David Haney
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John

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 03:34:10 PM »

Thanks for the info guys, I will just have to get a Zendrum and start experimenting.
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Zendrumdude

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2006, 12:25:53 AM »

Guys,

I have experimented on this to death, and unfortunately I CAN'T figure out how to choke cyms with the TD20.  I definitely don't want to just use a choked cymbal sample.  You cannot set up your own "Mute Groups" like you can with Alesis.

Let me know if anyone does find a way...

Jer
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drumhead99

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2006, 11:21:54 AM »

Sorry,  I 've been very busy lately!!!    This is a tough one.  As far as I know,  the actualy "choking" of the cymbal sound does take place (believe it or not) at the "pad" level.    An off/on message is sent to the brain via an internal ribbon on the pad,  thus making it a "choked" sound.    I've seen guys convert Hart cymbals that are NOT choke compatible by adding this ribbon to the cynbal itself on the undereath side.  So as far as I can think right now,  I can't figure out how to do this at only the Module level,  so it would work with the Zen.   I  have an idea in mind on how this might be accomplished though,  but I haven't tried it yet.   I'll let you know when I give it a go.

Mike
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john emrich

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2006, 06:43:47 PM »

You  could try looking at the decay amount.  It isn't perfect, but you may end up with something close to what you want and only take up one zendrum pad.

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John Emrich
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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2010, 10:19:29 PM »

I was able to finally get cymbal choking to work with a TD-20.  It's not documented anywhere within their MIDI implementation, but they do respond to CC#123 (all notes off).  Simply assign your momentary switch to note #123 and you now have a panic switch.  Press it after hitting a cymbal and you have a fairly passable choke effect.  Is it perfect?  No.  Is it better than nothing?  You bet!   :)

I don't recall if the 3.0 boards allowed you to reassign the note number for the momentary switch or not, so I'm not sure if this works only for the Z4.

By the way, this technique will also probably work for any Roland module, not just the TD-20.  It also functions the same no matter which way you have the polarity set.
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drumhead99

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 01:31:50 PM »

Great Idea-- I will have to try this.

My gosh-- it's been way too long since I posted on this forum.  I miss my friends here at the Zendrum forums.  I got seriously inspired the other day, as I saw another fellow Zendrummer (Jeff Gordon- not the racecar driver) play his laptop at one of the schools I teach in.  He was covering a gig that I normally do for the school- but couldn't make any rehearsals for.  I eneded up catching some of their morning dress rehearsal when I got there- and saw he was a Zendrummer!  I was lovin' it.  He ran BFD on a Muse Receptor-- and o boy-- I am sold.  It honestly sounded like a nice, CD quality drumset coming out of his amp. Just beautiful.  I don't know if he's on this forum, but if you are Jeff--  great sound, great playin', and we've got to get together to go over some stuff.

(I had some serious elbow problems that have held me down for a while -- but I had the surgery in August, and man I am healin', and healing well- I missed playing and look forward to getting the new 4.0 in my Zendrum- cause it really looked responsive from what I saw...)
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randtor

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 08:48:32 PM »


Hi all,

I tried to set the choke feature using the 'sustain button' on the back, but I don't have any change with it, no matter which way I set the polarity. In fact, I don't feel the sustain button does anything either way it is set. It seems like the button has no effect on any of my sounds. Am I doing something wrong?
I am using a TD-10, but I don't think the module is the problem. Any ideas? (3.0 board, 3.1 chip)

Thanks,
Rand
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Zendrumdude

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2010, 09:21:36 PM »

Sorry Rand,

Cymbal chokes ain't gonna happen without the Z4 chip for the TD series.  But the sus button WILL affect your melodic sounds... piano, etc.  Try that to see how it works.

Jer
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peabody58

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 05:24:08 AM »

I was able to finally get cymbal choking to work with a TD-20.  It's not documented anywhere within their MIDI implementation, but they do respond to CC#123 (all notes off).  Simply assign your momentary switch to note #123 and you now have a panic switch.  Press it after hitting a cymbal and you have a fairly passable choke effect.  Is it perfect?  No.  Is it better than nothing?  You bet!   :)

I don't recall if the 3.0 boards allowed you to reassign the note number for the momentary switch or not, so I'm not sure if this works only for the Z4.

By the way, this technique will also probably work for any Roland module, not just the TD-20.  It also functions the same no matter which way you have the polarity set.

When the Draken returns from 'vacation' with the Inspector, I'll try this with my TD-10exp and report back.
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randtor

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Re: cymbal choke
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 01:21:17 PM »

Thanks Peabody, and Jer, for the responses. The sustain button does indeed work for the melodic sounds, but that's it. I don't think there is any way to set the button other than for polarity, right? The TD-10 doesn't choke the cymbals unfortunately. Maybe with the upgrade that would work Jer, I wonder if the Inspector knows?

On the same 'note' <g>, does anyone use the melodic tones? They are pretty cool, but they seem to be randomly assigned to the pads. Is there some rhyme or reason to them, and what can we do with them?

Rand
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